October 28 2010
Overlap Overlap
A crossword topic to overlap our recent Overlap storm: This week I faced two clues, both of which play a little loose with the cryptic rulebook. Not that such a book is spelt out in black-and-white, but these two clues certainly test the genre’s etiquette.
The key sin in both cases is overlapping. That is, one part of the clue is tasked to serve two purposes. Or as we turn to WOMBAT, a charade clue from my go-to setter, Paul, you’ll see the answer’s letter B is double-tasked. Take a look:
Pre-pouch protector for marsupial (6)
As far as I can figure, the wordplay breakdown goes like this: WOMB [Pre-pouch] + BAT [protector] = WOMBAT [marsupial]
See how the B is dovetailed by the charade’s two parts. Dodgy? Adventurous? Immoral? What do you think about this overlap effect?
The second clue is more tangled, a newish Guardian compiler called Biggles at the controls. You’ll see in this container clue, where the answer is GEOMANCY (a means of fortune telling by using thrown soil) how the C is called into action:
Dotty way of prophesying (very Scottish) about Arab country and its leader (8)
Again, to parse the clue:
Dotty way of prophesying [GEOMANCY – though not sure why dotty] = very Scottish [GEY] about Arab country [OMAN] and its leader [C – the leader of country, a word already enlisted to give us Oman]
A twistier piece of business, as befits a Prize Crossword. But do these overlap tactics overstep the mark? Or should a bit of boundary-stretching be applauded?
Share your thoughts, and see who can make the best clues for WOMBAT and GEOMANCY while we’re chatting.
Comments
Simon L — 28 October at 09:42AM
I like the idea in general, but it feels as though for the first one at least there should be a signpost. I think I've come across these before where 'merged' or'fused' or similar were used to signpost the overlap.
WOMBAT = Animal key cutback.
AS — 28 October at 09:44AM
I think both clues are very much out of bounds.
And I'm assuming Biggles used dotty in the sense of crazy/silly/mad, which geomancy certainly is.
DA — 28 October at 09:54AM
Agree, Simon - if you warn the solver about fusion (I like that word) then the solver is awake to some overlap - like MATTRESS may be dull hair, clumped?
AS - yes, this is shaky ground, beyond the rules as you say. In the same vein I find the use of 'dotty' a little superior too. Imagine is Biggles called the zodiac bunkum, or pagan, or branded Buddhism an idle pursuit. Or is some setter attitood of that kind a good thing?
Mr X — 28 October at 09:55AM
For Paul's - I think using the same letter twice without indicating you've done so is a no-no. Maybe "pre"-pouch was an indicator that just the first letters of womb were to be used.
Biggles' double use of country is made kosher, though borderline, by the use of "its" to indicate a double use. It would have read better if the indicated letter was O or I but it probably just gets a pass.
SK — 28 October at 10:00AM
I don't particularly like either clue...and I think the use of the B twice in clueing WOMBAT is tres dodgy.
GEOMANCY- Fortune-telling fellow follows his alter-ego to see why?
WOMBAT- Aussie native gets higher degree in two shakes
Mr X — 28 October at 10:01AM
From Googling, it seems that geomancy specifically involves making patterns of dots in order to do the fortune telling.
DA — 28 October at 10:31AM
OK, so dotty is not a cheap shot. I'll retract my own dirt.
JT — 28 October at 01:01PM
A hairy beast belches and turns heads after womens' rights are abolished (6)
Cagy omen cast by dirty divination (8)
jason
SK — 28 October at 01:59PM
Or-
GEOMANCY- Fancy a sex-change after alter ego spreads some dirt?
dg — 28 October at 04:20PM
WOMBAT: Where it all started for Ossie?
dg — 28 October at 05:11PM
Lose my head on New-age Commy rubbish? How divine!
New-age, heartless, Commy rubbish or way to make sense of the Earth?
dg — 28 October at 05:12PM
The second clue doesnt need 'or'
Mauve — 28 October at 06:00PM
unless "pre-pouch protector" = womb
and "for" = at
(as in "I'm aiming for the target" = "I'm aiming at the target")
because I can't believe any setter would fuse womb with bat (even with a signpost the whole idea opens a can of worms)
and also, protector=bat is a bit iffy imho
dg — 28 October at 06:54PM
I really think Mauve's right .... a womb is a pouch 'pre-babyhood' and those sentences are almost identical ('for' seems slightly more definite in intention or desire)
Mr X — 28 October at 06:56PM
Mauve, I think you've cracked it.
Mauve — 29 October at 11:03AM
"it"? Thanks Mr X. I usually get "up"
Mauve — 29 October at 11:08AM
"it"? Thanks Mr X. I usually get "up"
Luke Brattoni — 29 October at 10:12PM
Hey David, it's Luke from Letters & Numbers who was in George Street Dymocks today.
I guessed 'waffles' to your 6 letter 'Gas on for breakfast'. Just Googled it now and saw I was right. I feel I have decades of Cryptic Crosswords to catch up on now, being a total noob to the arena. :D
PS. Store ridicules Dee Why trials? (7 letters)
Mauve — 30 October at 12:16AM
Luke! omg! It's Stu McArthur from Amiright, masquerading as Mauve
bloody unbelievable
I assume you intend to cause havoc here like you did with The Only Thread That Matters - j/k
hey, how's emiloca?