February 22 2011
The Loroso Report - Ampster to Bogart
Away we go with Signore Loroso. Enjoy the charm and wisdom of England’s arch-setter Dean Mayer as he holds each homegrown clue to the light. By all means add your own views and counterviews in the Comments page. Let’s treat the Loroso Report as the generous document it is, as well as a launchpad for general cryptic chat.
Different from the original shortlist, I’ve linked creators to their clues, making it easier for you to forecast all players' ultimate fates as we go.
AMPSTER: Sly tramp’s terrible admission (JD)
For me this is a perfectly sound clue in terms of surface reading, definitions and wordplay indicator – but it’s better than that; the answer is a far from common word and in a normal cryptic puzzle it should be clued as simply as possible to give the solver a fair chance. The hidden answer trick is arguably the easiest you can use, so that gives the clue extra kudos.
BALDACHIN: Coverage of blatant China conflict (Mr X)
I quite like ‘coverage’ as a sly definition, but I’m not so happy with the wordplay. ‘Blatant’ is fine for BALD, but for the anagram bit I’d prefer ‘China in conflict’ as ‘conflict’ on its own doesn’t have all the desired grammatical bits. On the flight over here I scribbled a note that ‘open’ for BALD would allow a natural segue with ‘conflict in’: Coverage of open conflict in China (9) Even this, however, doesn’t quite hit the mark grammatically, although many editors would allow it.
BALDACHIN: Nude up top hurtin’ church awning (DA)
Nothing at all wrong with the construction here, and there is nice humour in the clue, but the surface reading doesn’t come across as very plausible. It takes a while to see that what’s implied is a nude being on top of a church awning; that seems an unlikely scenario, as does the idea of this actually hurting (rather than damaging) it.
BALDACHIN: Spooner sent for trashcan as sunshade? (??)
Well at least I now know the pronunciation of ‘baldachin’! This is actually a nicely observed and amusing clue but it lacks one thing. The Spoonerism is pointing to CALLED A BIN but it’s based on using a homophone (otherwise we’re looking for CHALD A BIN) so it’s necessary to add some sort of homophone indicator in the clue. You’d end up with something along the lines of: Spooner sent for trashcan while discussing sunshade (9) It’s wordier, not half as funny, but won’t offend the solving purists.
BOGART: Hogwarts Centre is found near a marsh (JT)
Thank you for giving me about 2 hours of complete torture! It took me an incredible amount of time to understand what was going on here. How, I wondered, could the centre of ‘Hogwarts’ possibly be ART – it’s nowhere near the centre! And where’s the definition? And I’m typing this about two minutes after successfully separating HOG from WARTS, just moving onto my second glass of red wine, still very sober but with a mind full of violence-towards-clue-writer-based thoughts. By that, do I mean it’s a rubbish clue? Far from it; in its twisted way I think it’s sheer brilliance. It could never be used in a crossword series overseen by any right-minded editor, but it’s still brilliant. You don’t win the cigar today, but you can tell your friends – with some pride – that you almost caused Anax to start chewing the fur off the cats he’s supposed to be looking after for a week, you spawn of the devil you.
BOGART: Spooner supporting Simpson soak up the spotlight (Simon L)
It was only after looking at these BOGART clues in succession I realised there must be some colloquial definition for the word, and it’s one I rather like (although it’s absolutely new to me). Unfortunately this clue leaves me a little cold. There are two issues. ‘Spooner supporting Simpson’ for GO BART seems OK on first reading, but second time around it’s apparent the tense isn’t right – we’re looking at something like ‘message from Spooner supporting Simpson’ for this bit to work properly. The main difficulty, though, is the clue as a whole, which I just can’t read as a grammatically complete sentence; it seems to have bits missing. This is on the fly now (if you want to know the chronologically unlikely truth – these evaluations aren’t being done in clue order; the red wine glass has been filled four times and there’s now a delicious meal on the table) but I’ll see if I can expand the clue into something more complete: How Spooner encourages Simpson to soak up the spotlight? (6)
BOGART: Greta Garbo outrage! Cast hog the limelight (Sam)
The devilishness of this clue isn’t quite as extreme as the ‘Noel’ trick for PARAPH (below) and it’s the sort of device you do see occasionally in British puzzles, probably most likely in the Guardian but even there it would be used in strict moderation. Some newspapers bar it altogether even in its most straightforward form. In the Independent, for example, you can’t even take GRETA GARBO and explicitly state the removal of the letters of RAGE – a subtraction of this type is only allowed if the letters to be removed appear together, in order, in the ‘fodder’ (that is, the GRETA GARBO’ bit). For our purposes I’m happy to accept this clue as it stands, and it’s certainly a clever observation which has been strung together very coherently. A contender? Well, as it stands I can’t see this one struggling to make the top three; even if the subtraction device is bordering on unfair the ‘Aha!’ moment on seeing how it fits together makes the torture worthwhile.
BOGART: Legend of noir graffiti? (DA)
After a lot of brain racking I’m still not sure why the word ‘noir’ is used here, but I’ll hold my hands up if there’s a colloquial link between ‘noir’ and BOG that I’m unaware of. That may be irrelevant to the big picture as I have two small quibbles anyway. ‘Noir graffiti’ isn’t something that conjures up a convincing image for me – I just can’t imagine what noir graffiti might be. And the definition ‘legend’ for BOGART is rather vague.
Tomorrow: CONTUMELY to IRENIC
Comments
Boniface — 22 February at 10:41AM
DA - Gee whiz, he missed your Bogart badly. I think you should have a right of reply on that.
As for Spoonerisms requiring a homophone indicator, I don't necessarily agree with that. Spoonerisms are for the ear, not the eye. Am I wrong?
Finally, it looks like UK setters/solvers are much more anal about anagrinds than we are. I'm not sure that I agree with that strict attitude, but it may be a matter of style.
Looking forward to the discussion!
DA — 22 February at 10:49AM
Them's the breaks, Boniface. Not the first time a solver has missed my clue's nettle. But the judge has the final verdict.
Agreed on the Spoonerism nicety too. If Richie Benaud delivers bitchy Renault on a spoon, then no homophone marker is needed. That's the gimmick's convention, though Loroso is coming from a stricter school of setting.
Simon L — 22 February at 11:18AM
So where did the mystery BALDACHIN clue come from? I don't remember reading it until now.
SK was right about needing to tighten up the grammar on my clue, but I think I was intending it to be read as a sort of alliterative newspaper headline - hence the relaxed grammar.
It seems that strict grammar may be much more important generally for British setters (e.g. also X's BALDACHIN clue) - is this the case do you think DA?
DA — 22 February at 11:36AM
No idea of the sunshade/trashcan's source. Seems to have emerged from ether.
As for the internal grammar of a clue's wordplay - a deeper system than the surface sense - this is where verb, case, mood etc must correctly reflect the equation that produces the solution: a purer Ximenean school of thinking. The same tribe forbid looser definitions, such as 'on your shoulder' for EPAULETTE, say. More to come on this, and an excellent point of chat, too.
My patch is more libertarian. Welcome to the great divide of Cryptopia, as much as we love our neighbours.
DA — 22 February at 11:38AM
PS - off to Telly Land now. (Series 3 of L&N is cranking up this week) So won't be on hand as this forum unfurls.
Anthony Douglas — 22 February at 11:38AM
I loved the BOGART clue too, but he's right about the surface sense.
What about:
Legend of film - American Graffiti
Harder to pick, unless you add in noir again
Legend of noir film - American Graffiti
...but then the surface meaning is pretty odd.
Mauve — 22 February at 11:54AM
I too am amazed he didn't pick up "legend of noir" as the def. As a tragic noir fan, with a collection of over 60 film noirs and almost as many books, it seems obvious to me that noir suggests film noir, but maybe in England it's not so well-known. If that's the case I suppose noir would be a confusing inclusion.
Mr X — 22 February at 12:22PM
Interesting to see the national differences. Clearly Laroso isn't a cinephile. Admittedly, I wondered whether Bogart was a film noir icon or not. My memory from Film Study classes was that noir was often applied to B-movies whereas Bogart was definitely an A-lister. howeevr, I think the Maltese Falcon is generally regarded as a seminal noir film.
Mr X — 22 February at 12:26PM
In relation to my Baldachin, I reckon that "conflict" works grammatically as an anagram indicator if it's viewed as an imperitive verb. I guess this is one where the conventions vary.
Mauve — 22 February at 12:44PM
You've piqued my interest now Mr X!
Apart from Beat The Devil which was noir but a noir spoof, Bogart made some classic A-list noirs. My favourite is the latter noir (1950) In A Lonely Place with the beautiful and restrained Gloria Graham.
But Key Largo is considered a noir, Dark Passage and Dead Reckoning and They Drive By Night certainly, but his big three A-list noirs were To Have and Have Not (the one where he met Lauren Bacall who told him to purse his lips and blow) and the seminal (to borrow your word Mr X) noirs, with all the noir ingredients, The Maltese Falcon and The Big Sleep. You definitely should see The Big Sleep and In A Lonely Place imo.
The reason so many noirs were B-films was because the studios were forced to provide two movies for every screening, and a noir storyline was low budget and easy to write. But the reason they were easy to write is because they tapped into the post-war, German expressionist (since so many great German Jewish directors fled Nazi Germany to America)-influenced, misogynist sensibilities of the times, which were more classically and mythically represented in the A-list noirs.
JD — 22 February at 12:46PM
Makes for interesting reading. I can visualise a pythonesque committee of cryptic clue assessors passing judgement, and debating semantics.
Maybe it's a shame DA didn't stick with his original 'unlocked', although if they don't allow 'on the shoulder' for epaulette, it's unlikely that unlocked would pass muster.
Is there an official set of rules one can access?
Mauve — 22 February at 01:26PM
Yes, being surprised at the wily Hogwarts wordplay suggests he might have trouble with DA's crosswords. DA's recent "band" to mean "ban d" to mean withdraw "d" from the anagram would result in similar astonishment, I'm thinking. As with tricks like "legend" to mean "g" etc.
But all that aside, this is a fascinating project you've set up for us DA. I've been aware of Loroso for a long time, and the mere idea of him reading one of my clues is incredible and gobsmacking to me. Big thanks to you and Loroso.
Mr X — 22 February at 01:28PM
Mauve - I know we're getting off topic now but whenever I see The Big Sleep I'm reminded of Raymond Chandler's comment that whenever he got stuck trying to figure out what happens next, he just had a guy come through the door holding a gun.
dg — 22 February at 01:51PM
Loroso is way out on Spoonerisms. Look below at the original ones. (The sound NOT spelling matters)
--------------
Examples
Most of the quotations attributed to Spooner are apocryphal; The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (3rd edition, 1979) lists only one substantiated spoonerism: "The weight of rages will press hard upon the employer." Spooner claimed[1] that "The Kinquering Congs Their Titles Take" (in reference to a hymn)[4] was his sole spoonerism. Most spoonerisms were probably never uttered by William Spooner himself, but rather made up by colleagues and students as a pastime.[5] Richard Lederer, calling "Kinkering Kongs their Titles Take" (with an alternate spelling) one of the "few" authenticated Spoonerisms, dates it to 1879, and gives nine examples "attributed to Spooner, most of them spuriously".[6] They are:
"Three cheers for our queer old dean!" (dear old queen, referring to Queen Victoria)
"Is it kisstomary to cuss the bride?" (customary to kiss)
"The Lord is a shoving leopard." (a loving shepherd)
"A blushing crow." (crushing blow)
"A well-boiled icicle" (well-oiled bicycle)
"You were fighting a liar in the quadrangle." (lighting a fire)
"Is the bean dizzy?" (dean busy)
"Someone is occupewing my pie. Please sew me to another sheet." (occupying my pew...show me to another seat)
"You have hissed all my mystery lectures. You have tasted a whole worm. Please leave Oxford on the next town drain." (missed...history, wasted...term, down train)[6]
A newspaper column[2] attributes this additional example to Spooner: "A nosey little cook." (cozy little nook).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoonerism#Examples
Boniface — 22 February at 01:59PM
Nice dg! Bet you had to search every crook and nanny for that list...
Stig Helson — 22 February at 03:21PM
I think DA fans should expand their horizons and solve cryptic crosswords from all around the world. It will then become apparent that DA's style of cluing is the exception, not the rule, and should not be held up as a model for budding crossword writers.
Someone mentioned "national differences", as if DA defines the Australian style and "rules" - he does not. I've solved many Australian cryptic crosswords that are based on the UK model that Loroso would find acceptable.
Calling Loroso "anal" because he dares to demonstrate the correct use of an anagram indicator is arrogant IMO. Loroso has excelled in the toughest possible cryptic crossword market, and deserves more respect.
Stig
Mauve — 22 February at 03:46PM
Noir in a noirtshell Mr X.
Put a calculating femme fatale and a doomed victim of circumstance in the room as well and I'm in heaven.
Mauve — 22 February at 03:59PM
Whoa Stig. Where did someone describe Loroso as anal?
If you're going to perceive things we didn't say as disrespect there are plenty more things we didn't say that you could have included. For instance why didn't you mention our non-comment that he spends his evenings dancing to Barry Manilows Copacabana?
You're a bit selective with your criticisms of the things nobody said imo
Meanwhile our communal respect for Loroso shines through this thread like a streetlamp on a rainy night ( to bring film noir back into it)
Stig Helson — 22 February at 04:10PM
Boniface in response to Loroso's clue assessment:
"Finally, it looks like UK setters/solvers are much more anal about anagrinds than we are"
Did I misread this?
Stig
Mr X — 22 February at 04:11PM
Mauve - I think the "anal" was in the first comment but not directed specifically at Loroso.
Stig - I think a few of us here do UK cryptics and know of the varying conventions between the Ximenean vs non-Ximeneans. Personally I enjoy the, IMHO, more free-wheeling and creative efforts of the Non-Xs like the venerable, 90-year old and still going, Aracauria and Aracauria: The Next Generation (aka Paul)
Stig Helson — 22 February at 04:53PM
Mr X,
Actually I look at it differently. The crossword writer who can entertain when bound by established conventions is the creative one: just about anyone can come up with special clues when anything goes.
Stig
PS Paul has skill, he can write for any type of audience, but he's selective when he wants to bend the rules. He understands the need for balance in a crossword.
Mauve — 22 February at 05:00PM
My apologies, Stig. Gee, I scanned through the comments twice too.
Mental note to self: next time don't scan comments and dance to Copacabana at the same time
DA — 22 February at 07:02PM
Let's keep it Noyce, team - not that he directs noir films. This is a forum of free [and constructive] speech.
I remain an ardent fan of Loroso's work - just check the Anax blog to see how high this setter soars. And I also accept that I'm nobody's paragon. My style is one small twig on the cryptic tree, where the central fork remains Ximenean (Loroso among the elite) and libertarian (where Araucaria and Paul excel). Vive le difference, and bring on Part 2 tomorrow.
(Thanks dg for the spoonerism manifesto.)
dg — 22 February at 07:11PM
'Gay pro', Signore Astle
dg — 22 February at 07:23PM
"just about anyone can come up with special clues when anything goes."
I can't agree with this. A compiler can't just suddenly claim that celebrities' names indicates anagrams or country names indicate hidden words. A slight relaxing of anagram indicators hardly compares.
Stig Helson — 22 February at 07:47PM
dg,
You might not agree, but the actions of this forum don't support you. Most regular contributors have tried cluing at some point - obviously most visitors here don't believe it's that hard. And what rules do they go by? JD asked about an official set of rules, so what rules is he/she currently using when clue-writing? My anything goes comment was made in a much broader context, which seems clear to me.
Sam — 22 February at 08:22PM
I’ve really enjoyed reading both Anax/Loroso’s commentary and the ensuing debate – from which I’ve learned heaps already, so thanks for providing the forum DA. What I find particularly interesting (and which I hadn’t given a great deal of thought to before) is the role editors can play in setting the tone of a paper’s crossword (and how much leeway this gives a setter in tweaking formula). Is this part of the reason setters working for multiple publishers use different names? And when doing so, are their styles slightly different – for example knowing how much you might be able to get away with depending on the paper, or as Anax/Loroso said in the previous post: “to submit the puzzle and just wait to see if the naughty bits are picked up by the editor and changes requested”? I must admit I haven’t much adventured outside the local Melbourne papers…
Also a noir fan Mauve, and the Big Sleep would have to be one of my all time favourites – no matter how many time I see it, I’m always left wondering who exactly shot who in the end.
JD — 22 February at 08:43PM
Good question Stig -obviously the right rules for Ampster, it seemed to tick all the boxes, but I doubt I'll get the same glowing report for Paraph, even though I was quite chuffed with it at the time. The beauty of an exercise like this is the learning value, as well as the entertainment factor. I doubt that any of us has aspirations to become a bona fide setter.
What may become apparant to Loroso in his assessments, is that the pupils develop the style of the teacher. I can see this happening with the use of 'subtraction devices', a particular quirk of DA's that some of us have picked up on (apparently wrongly). Should any of us wish to submit puzzles to the Times, it would be in our best interest to familiarise ourselves with the more established conventions of clue writing. Thanks for instigating this thought-provoking discussion.
Anax — 22 February at 08:44PM
Aaargh!
Sorry about the 'noir' omission. I'm not a cinephile and the distinction was lost on me (heard of Bogart? Yes of course. Know his genre? Er... black and white? That's about as much as I know). In my (limited) defence, I'd been puzzled because 'graffiti' on its own for BOG ART wouldn't be sufficient in a British puzzle; graffiti can be anywhere.
As for styles, grammar, syntax, indicators and all that mullarkey, all I can offer here is the cryptic world I'm a native of. Yes, it can get a bit anal over here but them's the breaks and these are the tools we work with.
Anyway, if you fancy a break have a go with my Independent (Anax) puzzle today: http://www.independent.co.uk/extras/puzzles/crosswords/cryptic/
DA — 22 February at 08:57PM
Anax, thanks for dropping by. What's been great about your thorough response is the potential to discuss the nuances and biases of the clueing game. Even if we end up agreeing to disagree on some points, the benefit stands to be the exchange.
And a bigger thanks for the Indy link. A themer too, where you quash any suggestion of a morbid cinephobia.
Mauve — 22 February at 10:30PM
Sam, yes indecipherable plot. Never been unravelled. Teams of scientists have tried. Yet a wonderful film. The magical cool of noir
JPR — 24 February at 11:03PM
Bogart was great in 'Copacabana' -- "Play it Barry. You played it for her. You can play it for me..." Gobsmacked? Are you noir ace?